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Thinking about F95 reviews

Started by Goldo, Nov 18, 2024, 08:34 AM

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Greymantle

And coming from F95, I will add my voice to tell you to continue developing YOUR game the way YOU like. If they want a quick fap with no story nor gameplay, porn sites exist and are more for them.

Seriously, I registered an account here only (at least in first intention, we'll see where it goes from here to tell you to not mind about reviews, wherever they're from. The best games are the ones that their developers care about, and it shows in the attention to details. Your game is one of those, don't change that!

vadi92

#46
Quote from: Goldo on Nov 28, 2024, 04:54 PMFair enough, but that's not something I feel ready to compromise on. I put a large amount of work in the story and I still think that's how the game's supposed to be played, at first. You can easily unlock the no-story mode with a simple line in the console but I don't want to spoon-feed it to the players. Maybe I could make it unlock after the first chapter or so, that way it would take less time to reach it for people who really have the VN parts.

Im on the side with @MagentaTree. It's your own idea, your own creation, your own game. If they dont like the story (what i like so far) then they should try to search for other game with no story at all (wich would resoult in them to blame the creator that the game is bland for them).

Edit: deleted this message by accident (just wanted to do a bit of a quick edit). The only compromise part i would give them is a skip function to the part of the story what they have already readen (up to the challange part). But only for the players who have already readen it but start a fresh game for whatever reason and dont want to reread it over and over again.

GoldoTopic starter

Quote from: vadi92 on Dec 01, 2024, 06:24 AM
Quote from: Goldo on Nov 28, 2024, 04:54 PMFair enough, but that's not something I feel ready to compromise on. I put a large amount of work in the story and I still think that's how the game's supposed to be played, at first. You can easily unlock the no-story mode with a simple line in the console but I don't want to spoon-feed it to the players. Maybe I could make it unlock after the first chapter or so, that way it would take less time to reach it for people who really have the VN parts.

Im on the side with @MagentaTree. It's your own idea, your own creation, your own game. If they dont like the story (what i like so far) then they should try to search for other game with no story at all (wich would resoult in them to blame the creator that the game is bland for them).

Edit: deleted this message by accident (just wanted to do a bit of a quick edit). The only compromise part i would give them is a skip function to the part of the story what they have already readen (up to the challange part). But only for the players who have already readen it but start a fresh game for whatever reason and dont want to reread it over and over again.


Actually, you can set-up your skip options in the Preferences menu so that Ctrl will skip all dialogue, seen or not. That's an easy way to skip long dialogue if one doesn't want to read it.
Maker of BK. Looking for the latest patch for BK 0.2? The link doesn't change, so bookmark it!

Randah

The only bit of frustration is the initial setup with girl packs, and you've noted that in another thread. Otherwise, not everything needs to be everything to everyone.

I haven't gotten far in current version, but one thing that can get old is using the same soft touch approach with every girl/personality. Having some of them need negative reinforcement, others positive, some a balance, and the only way to tell is interacting with them or checking their dialogue would frustrate some who just want to click through but create a more varied experience. Different ways to break/mold girls would be important to sustain gameplay across all the chapters.

vadi92

Quote from: Goldo on Dec 03, 2024, 04:12 PM
Quote from: vadi92 on Dec 01, 2024, 06:24 AM
Quote from: Goldo on Nov 28, 2024, 04:54 PMFair enough, but that's not something I feel ready to compromise on. I put a large amount of work in the story and I still think that's how the game's supposed to be played, at first. You can easily unlock the no-story mode with a simple line in the console but I don't want to spoon-feed it to the players. Maybe I could make it unlock after the first chapter or so, that way it would take less time to reach it for people who really have the VN parts.

Im on the side with @MagentaTree. It's your own idea, your own creation, your own game. If they dont like the story (what i like so far) then they should try to search for other game with no story at all (wich would resoult in them to blame the creator that the game is bland for them).

Edit: deleted this message by accident (just wanted to do a bit of a quick edit). The only compromise part i would give them is a skip function to the part of the story what they have already readen (up to the challange part). But only for the players who have already readen it but start a fresh game for whatever reason and dont want to reread it over and over again.


Actually, you can set-up your skip options in the Preferences menu so that Ctrl will skip all dialogue, seen or not. That's an easy way to skip long dialogue if one doesn't want to read it.

I know that. What i meant is a skip function like with the intro.

Mudpony

#50
Girl Packs:
As far as Girl Packs go, I think that is something that can be solved by having some amalgamations, rather than individual girls, on the spread sheet. Generally speaking, the creators have certain interests, so they should be able to bundle up like with like. So adding support for that to the spread sheet would help in that regard. And for the rest, the basic girl pack exists, and there could be a download that has the game and it, so a single click.

Personally, I like the girl packs, but I do think they could be handled a bit better in game. If I look at the spreadsheet, I can pick art style, franchise, pack creator, and source. But in game, I can't use those things to pick a subset of girls I want. Of course, if this info was added to girls, any older ones wouldn't have it, but such is a life, at least it'll be there (hopefully) for ones going forward.

Management:

On the management side, as others have said, this is a management game. So it is best to aim to please people who like management games. If you try to make it appeal to those that want to manage and those that don't, you'll just wind up pleasing no one.

That said, if you did want to lighten the management role, the way I'd recommend to do it is to have a mode that reduces the quantity of girls you can have. A mode where you get half the girls, with appropriately reduced requirements to advance through stages. Half the girls = half the management, after all. But, honestly, unless such a thing is super easy to do, it would be best left for later, because there are only so many hours in a day. Please the core audience first.

Story:
I like the story, though I do wish we could do a bit more with the individual characters we encounter. But that would be a bit more VN rather than management. Still, it speaks to the appeal of characters like our noble guard gal, the corrupted captain, the "in with the thieves guild LT" and so on. And, of course, the various girls the ol' chump has... wish we could steal them from him and add them to our brothel.

I do think it is a bit grindy at times, though. Searching through an area of 6 options 3x to catch the ninjas, for example. Sure, if you know where they are, first time, woo! But if you don't know and you have bad luck... And then after you do that, then you have to talk to the right people 3x for each one. Now, that's not too bad if you put a little thought in, since the theme of the ninja tends to tie into who you should talk to, but it is a rule of 3 followed by a rule of 3... first catch, now talk.

On UI:
Parts of it are good, and other parts need work. A partial list of things that could stand to be improved:
Spoiler
1) The icon for a girl that is working, one who is sick or hurt, level up, rank up, and one that is always naked are pretty similar. The injured/sick girl should be something associated with medical care, like a red cross, the ol' staff + serpent, that sort of thing. The naked one should not be a head shot, but instead a tiny naked body. Rank and level up could both have + of different colors, for example.

Basically, all of these should be very visually distinct from each other.

2) The working one in particular could use a bit of a revamp. Separate images for each job (serving tray, massage bed, kimono, stripper pole), one for whoring, and an image that uses half of each for ones who are working a job and whoring. This would remove the need to have the job listed underneath the character's icon. These icons should probably have a shared border color as well, to connect them visually as belonging to the same category of thing to the player.

3) Character's names aren't there. The icons get smaller as you get more girls and you'll have girls that look somewhat alike. The art chosen could be less than ideal. So the character's name really should be there, in place of the job title (which the icon should remove the need for).

4) A girl that is ready to level or rank up should have a frame that really makes her pop, a different color for each one. Hurt/sick should probably use this as well. Basically, a girl that has something that wants attention should quickly pop out from the rest.

5) +/- for upkeep should not be by individual coins, but to the next mood modifier break point.

6) If I click on interact for a girl, then try to click on the various sex skills to activate/deactivate her accepting them, I can't. I can only do this at the highest level. Can't do it while training in the bedroom either. I should be able to.

7) Underneath rank, level, and job should be the numbers for Reputation, Experience, and current job JP. If the girl is set to just whore, it should also say that as her job, rather than listing the name of one of the skills. Not quite sure how to show the JP there, since it is 4 skills, but perhaps show the name and JP of the highest active sex skill?

8) The Exchange in The Warehouse district's Market: I have to click + or - to select how much stuff I want to sell/buy/trade. No slider. No ++ to go by 25s instead of 1s. Annoying when I want to sell/buy/trade lots of the item.

9) Girls + items. Let's say I have 5 pages of items. I have 2 weapons, so a single page. I have a bunch of misc stuff, enough to go all the way to page 5. If I click on the weapon icon, I still have 5 pages, but 2, 3, 4, and 5 are all blank. I don't even automatically go from page 5 to the last page that has an appropriate type of item (page 1 in case of weapons in my example).

10) Shops: the issue for #9 also applies to shops.

11) Free girl interactions inside the city. Some of the time, you can't see how their love adjusts. It is also over on the far left of the screen, as opposed to something like some floating hearts or sinking broken hearts being played right in the center of the screen, where the girl's picture is.

12) In the Carpenter's Wagon screen: It shows the available resources, but A) it isn't inside the background area for it, B) it overlaps the Available Resources text, and C) the info is redundant as it already shows at the top of the screen. A minor quibble, but it does look a bit unpolished ;)

13) The info provided by hovering over the Brothel button on the main screen could probably be shown on the left side of the main screen. Threat level, Maintenance, expected customers, all would be nice to know.

14) It'd be nice to be able to delete saves from inside the game.
[close]

Overall, the biggest area with room for improvement is the girls screen. It is both an area where the player spends a lot of time and the one with the most numerous and severe issues.

Jman

#51
Most packpakers are nearly not as prolific as Leortha was, and many have their packs available in bulk. So a 'per packmaker' setting sort of already exists, and anything else is probably blocked by a lack of people with full access to the spreadsheet?

I don't see much of a problem with there being two separate downloads, one for the game and one for the girls, because there are usually three - the current patch is almost always also necessary. And it's a good idea to 'train' players to be able to update on their own. :)

Using extra attributes to manage girl mixes is an interesting idea.

A shorter, quicker, easier mode has already been talked about, and cutting the girl numbers in half is certainly a good way to go about it.

Agree about the status icons. I once took several more common ones (hurt, exhausted, resting, levelup, workwhore) from OhWee's mod, but I suppose making new ones would be better after all those years. Not sure about job icons, there's limited room for those and I'd prefer one row and job title to two rows of icons. Myself, I made different occupations and even some statuses have different background colours for the entire 'girl button'.

Character names are certainly there, just above the portrait. No idea what's wrong about that.

Disagree about cluttering the XP/rep bars with numerical values. This info is a short mouse hover away, and usually of no great interest as just a number.

The 'sex job' is already displaying their best sex skill. Not sure what adding 'whore' there would accomplish.

Definitely agree on lack of bulk trade in the Exchange, item paging cutoffs and resource display in the Carpenter's Wagon.

Some eye candy for free girl interactions sounds nice to have if not particularly important.

Brothel info is already displayed in the full-page report, not sure there needs to be a third mode of viewing that.

Ren'Py saves can be deleted by hovering over the save slot and pressing 'Del'. Perhaps a tooltip would help?
And with strange aeons even death may die...

Mudpony

#52
QuoteNot sure about job icons, there's limited room for those and I'd prefer one row and job title to two rows of icons.
There already is a working icon. It would replace that.

QuoteCharacter names are certainly there, just above the portrait. No idea what's wrong about that.
It is there, until it isn't. When you get more girls, you lose the name. This is also when you need the name the most, with more girls (so more chance of like image, more to look through to try and find a girl) and a smaller area per girl (so the image is smaller, etc.).

QuoteDisagree about cluttering the XP/rep bars with numerical values. This info is a short mouse hover away, and usually of no great interest as just a number
Disagree on that. I'm often interested in knowing how close a girl is exactly to leveling up a job. This is more of an issue as you get further into the game, when the bar will show basically full, even though there is still 25 or more points to go to level up the job. And I shouldn't have to constantly mouse over things to get basic info.

QuoteThe 'sex job' is already displaying their best sex skill. Not sure what adding 'whore' there would accomplish.
Consistency, although, that comes from looking at it as if it shows the job there, rather than the skill. Guess it is probably always showing a skill, since the skill and job are the same for the job skills, but only the whore work has separate skills.

Jman

What working icon? Workwhore? There's no "I'm just working here" status icon, is there?

You can use other filters than x24 and x40. We also have paging now, so it's easier to do, too. I've never really managed to reach a point where these filters are applicable, and they do seem kinda worse for things other than just glancing at status icons. I suppose the rank/level information could be replaced by a shortened name?

What exactly does it give you to know your girl has almost leveled her job, but still needs 25/640 JP to do so? I mean, she'll either job up naturally, or you'll give her a boost somehow. But I don't think said boosting is frequent enough to be worth checking all the time, and for the rare case it is, the hover is there. I suppose if the points were decreasing, like it sometimes happens with reputation, it might be worth checking more often. But JP/XP don't decrease, do they?


I'm not sure inserting a job to the skills section is any more consistent than the current situation.

And with strange aeons even death may die...

Mudpony

Correct, there is no icon for just working. Nor is there one for just whoring. There is one for resting, one for working half a day. And one for working and whoring. And one for resting half a day. These type of things should be consistent, though. If whoring has an icon, waitress should have one as well. And there should be a half and half icon for a girl doing both. It's how a well designed UI is. Consistent, and giving players the info they want/need. Which isn't to say the current UI is bad. Just that this is one aspect that could be improved.

For the rest, it doesn't matter that we can do X or Y to get around a problem. Goldo asked about why people might have issues with the UI. I'm telling him various issues I have with the UI. I like the 24x, because it gives me more info in a single screen, with less clicking. If I have to do more clicking to get around the issue, then all you're doing is replacing one issue with another one. So then I'll complain about not being able to see all the girls, and you'll make the bright suggestion that I can use x24 or x40. And now we're in a loop of worthless advice.

For the rest, it gives info I want. You might not want it. I do. Others might want it as well. It tells me how close they are, which lets me make decisions like if I want to swap a just maxed girl to the almost maxed girl's job now, or to wait a day, since she'll max in a day.

Jman

#55
The point is, working/whoring is already conveyed through different means (coloured text in a distinct location), since this is the most important 'status' a girl has. Even if we get good icons for all jobs, these will still be stuck among a bunch of other similar icons, and thus less easy to visually recognise. And you're even proposing several icons together for that purpose, making it all the more complicated to see at a glance.


You don't need to click, mousewheel scrolls through girl pages, too. Personally, I prefer two x12 screens to scroll back and forth in to a single x24 screen with lots of tiny icons.

If anything, x24 and x40 need a more distinct way to convey a girl's job without relying on increasingly tinier icons.

The example about maxing jobs is not very convincing, since the switch is mainly determined by when the girl actually maxes her job, not when you predict she will. The exact number is meaningless here, her bar is almost maxed, so you keep her there for a little longer (a day, two, three even). What exactly are you going to do differently if you see 610/640 JP and she earned 25 JP last night? And how do you know the last number without mousing into stats anyway?


My point is, the numerical value is not a particularly better indicators than the 'fullness' of the bar, unless you go digging into the stats section. And in that case your mouse is already going into almost the same place anyway. But for any other scenario (the vast majority of the time), these numbers will just sit there and clutter up the interface for every single player. Including ones who don't care or who can get by with the bar alone.

Remember, this is coming from the guy who once exposed a large amount of similar numbers to the UI (love, fear, exact preference values, exact percentile chances of working different jobs that night, etc). At no point was I desperate to know exact experience values so much that I wanted to move them to the global 'girls' interface.

Edit: I suppose Goldo could do something similar to what I did with love and fear icons, and write 'MAX' on the bars if they're actually maxed. Would that work for you?

The only case where I did clutter the interface with extra numbers instead of hiding them in tooltips was the mood change value, because I had a slightly more complex upkeep scheme and wanted to see the impact of my choices in real time. Well, that and overall percentile working chance for the night.
And with strange aeons even death may die...

Calob

Quote from: Mudpony on Dec 07, 2024, 03:47 PMCorrect, there is no icon for just working. Nor is there one for just whoring.

There's a "Not set to work and whore" icon, along with a "Not naked" icon, in Game Settings. I find them more useful than their opposites, since they are both more visually distinct (big ol' red Xs over their respective icons) and because, in a normal playthrough, I put all my slaves on naked working-and-whoring.