Quote from: Alpha_and_omega on Mar 19, 2024, 02:00 PMWhat the heck are Wyvern Eggs ?

Quote from: Goldo on Mar 22, 2024, 09:19 AM

Quote from: Alpha_and_omega on Mar 19, 2024, 02:00 PMWhat the heck are Wyvern Eggs ?

Ive been playing this game for well over a year and haven't seen this in the game LMAO how does one acquire?

Quote from: AlolanNinetales on Mar 26, 2024, 09:57 AM

Quote from: Goldo on Mar 22, 2024, 09:19 AM

Quote from: Alpha_and_omega on Mar 19, 2024, 02:00 PMWhat the heck are Wyvern Eggs ?

Ive been playing this game for well over a year and haven't seen this in the game LMAO how does one acquire?

My bad, I see I actually disabled that item for normal shop generation. I will add a couple of ways to get it in the new update.

As far as game play and balance goes, the single biggest issue that stands out for me is completing the first chapter.

To complete chapter 1, you need 1k gold, and you probably won't have much saved up other than that. Your girls are rank 1, so weak in various ways, so not big money makers. You only have 4-6 girls, and until you make an upgrade, only 4 can work, and one or two of those will likely be resting. You have limited upgrades on your first brothel, so you don't get much money from selling it. Upgrading your new brothel in terms of rooms costs quite a bit. And then various things can happen, like an injury, so you're suddenly down a girl and revenue drops. Or one of those fire/bar-fight events, which adds 100 to messiness to your place, and it costs a ton of money to clean it up. Also, there's no warning that girls are set to work in rooms that you had in the old place, but no longer exist in the new one, which can result in another day of lost work. And, of course, you lose all your customer base and have to build that back up.

It is a situation where you likely have low cash on hand, a high need of cash, a low ability to earn it, and are very much at risk of a random event ending everything. It wouldn't surprise me is this is one of the most frequent points at which a newer player will stop playing the game.

If you have experience with the game, it is less of an issue. You know to save a bit more before-hand. You know what to invest in to get your revenue back up the fastest. You know you can harvest the three resources and sell them to provide the income your brothel isn't giving you, though this then eats up your actions, which sucks for a less speed focused character. You know to max out the advertising budget the first couple of days. But it is, overall, the worst/hardest point in the game, even with experience, and subsequent change locations are trivial in comparison.

Some suggestions to help:
1) The clean up costs should be considerably lower for the earlier brothels, increasing as time goes up, and/or the amount of dirtiness added by fires/bar brawls should also be dependent on where you are in the game.
2) The costs to upgrade that 2nd brothel could stand to be a bit lower, Especially for unlocking each working room at rank 1, just to make it easier for the player to get back to rank 1.
3) The upgrades to your bedroom (how many girls you can have assigned there) should carry over.
4) A pop up warning when you have a girl assigned to work in a room you don't have, similar to how threat level ones work.
5) And maybe a bit more cash given to the player to start with. Perhaps requiring a raising of the 1k amount to 1500 or so.

And that said, not a big fan of the cost to unlock a new zodiac sign for a girl. It takes two points, which often, combined with the rank caps, leaves you with 1 point lingering, and a constant "you have girls to level up" indicator. And also that annoying indicator when you are just saving the point to get the 2nd point you need. And once you invest those two points... you get nothing. You need a third point before you can finally get some benefit. I'd rather only get 1 point at level 5, 10, and so on, and have the unlock cost 1. Also, some minor benefit to having the sign unlocked.

Quote from: Calob on Feb 23, 2024, 07:15 PM...What, you hate free maintenance and lower upkeep? Those are, IMO, the first- and second-best C-rank perks, maybe after free items in Fox.

I find the tree pretty bad overall as well. Part of it is because a chunk of the tree is faster skill gains. That's all well and good, but ultimately, once a girl caps her skills, dead perks. Same deal with Loyalty, except that loses value even faster. And while +1 maintenance is not bad, it also loses value as you progress through the game. So in the tree, there is a lot of rather small and short term benefit, rather than a long term one that scales nicely.

But another big part is that I generally play wizard. That means two things. First, I get the Magic Servants spell. That's -50 dirt per point of spirit per day, which is insane even if it provided half of that. Needless to say, once you have this spell, dirt is not an issue. Second, there's Magic Shield, another spell, which means the first instance of a girl getting hurt is negated. Which cuts heavily into the Survivor B rank thing as well. When you combine that with the skill gains being a short term thing, it doesn't leave much value left to the tree.

That said, it isn't necessarily bad that, as a Wizzy, I have less value to this sign or that sign. Helps differentiate the player classes. But even so, I think the Maid could stand to be a bit better. For example:
1) Maid Training could give +1 to Brothel Maintenance per rank, so at rank B, it would provide 2 points of Maintenance, 3 at A, and so on. Alternately, have it provide +1 Maintenance for every point spent in the Maid tree, so that the benefit reflects the training in maid stuff, rather than just the girl's rank. Or, as a third option, it doubles every time you reach a new rank within the tree. So 1 to start with, 2 once you get your first B rank Maid skill, and 4 once you have Strive for Perfection. Any of these would help this trait scale as you move through the game.
2) I'd rather see Hardworking provide an income increase to waitressing, rather than a JP increase. Or perhaps in addition to it. Bring on the maid cafes!
3) Loyalty needs something. A chance of love gain (an inverse Spiteful), maybe? A reduction in the cost of using "Clean up" in the Brothel menu, to make it cheaper to bounce back from bad events, as her loyalty to your establishment means she helps in the cleanup? Perhaps her cleaning extends to the other girls' rooms, adding to their comfort value?
4) Strive for Perfection could double the bonus of Maid Training. She's not in training anymore. She's a master. If the third option for #1 isn't used, of course.

I think your two points may be more linked than you realize.

The 'Maid' tree is specifically designed to help with the early game, and the bottom perks can really help your finances (free clean-up, less upkeep, better obedience to achieve more reliability in the beginning). If you bypass the Maid tree, you will struggle more in the beginning (although it shouldn't be game-breaking).

The thinking is that if you later want to min-max things, you should ditch your early Maid girl and switch to girls with more late-game trees. Or you could keep her and use the evil ritual to reset her perks. Or you could not min-max (but I know that's not an option for everybody  ).

Some more specific points:

Quote from: Mudpony on Apr 12, 2024, 04:23 PMAlso, there's no warning that girls are set to work in rooms that you had in the old place, but no longer exist in the new one, which can result in another day of lost work. And, of course, you lose all your customer base and have to build that back up.

That sounds like a bug, if you mean girls are set to work in rooms that do not exist. Are you talking about 0.2 or 0.3 test? I distinctly remember fixing that, or at least I thought it was fixed.

QuoteIt is a situation where you likely have low cash on hand, a high need of cash, a low ability to earn it, and are very much at risk of a random event ending everything.

Security events are not random and having enough security working should be quite foolproof at the beginning. If not, it may be a balance issue. I'd be interested in more feedback on this.

Quote1) The clean up costs should be considerably lower for the earlier brothels, increasing as time goes up, and/or the amount of dirtiness added by fires/bar brawls should also be dependent on where you are in the game.

I will make the clean-up costs increase gradually, although at the beginning one or two cleaners should be enough to keep a single-girl brothel clean so you shouldn't need it.

Quote2) The costs to upgrade that 2nd brothel could stand to be a bit lower, Especially for unlocking each working room at rank 1, just to make it easier for the player to get back to rank 1.

Do you have some ideas about how much they should cost to be more balanced?

Quote3) The upgrades to your bedroom (how many girls you can have assigned there) should carry over.

They are reimbursed in part when you sell the brothel, which should help building up to that next level. You could also spend what you have and take the banker's loan if you're really struggling.

Quote4) A pop up warning when you have a girl assigned to work in a room you don't have, similar to how threat level ones work.

Sounds more like a bug.

Quote5) And maybe a bit more cash given to the player to start with. Perhaps requiring a raising of the 1k amount to 1500 or so.

This will be a NG+ option, but I think I like the balance I found with 500g at the beginning and don't want to break too many things.

QuoteAnd that said, not a big fan of the cost to unlock a new zodiac sign for a girl. It takes two points, which often, combined with the rank caps, leaves you with 1 point lingering, and a constant "you have girls to level up" indicator. And also that annoying indicator when you are just saving the point to get the 2nd point you need. And once you invest those two points... you get nothing. You need a third point before you can finally get some benefit. I'd rather only get 1 point at level 5, 10, and so on, and have the unlock cost 1. Also, some minor benefit to having the sign unlocked.

I guess the stat increase you get with every Rank C perk could be given when unlocking the tree instead, but that would make Level 1 girls a bit stronger as they have one or two trees unlocked. That may help early game, so you might say it's worth it.

I don't think the maid thing is that related. The cost of +1 cleaning is pretty low, gold-wise, so that isn't that much savings. And you get the cleaning spell relatively early in the game (as a wizzy), so the maid never really gets a chance to pay out. Overall, for early benefit, I'd rather get The Player, for Party Girl, which is great early and late.

As to Obedience, I'm sure that can be helpful for a newer player, but it is a very short term benefit, and one with alternate solutions. You can send the girl to the farm for a bit. You can invest the points from an early level into obedience. You can buy an item or two with +obedience on it and put it on the newest girl for a tad. Once you start training a girl, you gain a lot of obedience. Sometimes, one skill will be an issue, if the girl dislike it, but you can usually swap to a different skill, train that, and by time you return, no problem, or, once you do succeed once, you're usually fine.

That said, I do like the -15% upkeep reduction, if the girl in question has expensive on her. But, again, that 2 point initial cost to invest in a tree is painful, so unless the girl has expensive and a maid unlocking trait...

QuoteThat sounds like a bug, if you mean girls are set to work in rooms that do not exist. Are you talking about 0.2 or 0.3 test? I distinctly remember fixing that, or at least I thought it was fixed.

This is in 0.3. I had all 4 working rooms when I went on to chapter 2, and after that, only had 1. The girls all kept the jobs they were set to, but, of course, by switching to the new brothel, I no longer had all four rooms. So they couldn't work those jobs, but were still set to them.

QuoteI will make the clean-up costs increase gradually, although at the beginning one or two cleaners should be enough to keep a single-girl brothel clean so you shouldn't need it.

It isn't the cost per cleaner that's a problem. Daily maintenance is fine. It's the cost of cleaning up a bad event, when suddenly your bar goes from clean to a bunch of dirt. So naturally you want to call in the outside cleaners to get rid of 100%/%50% of that. That's the cost that feels too high for me early on, that makes it painful to recover from events like a fire.

QuoteDo you have some ideas about how much they should cost to be more balanced?

Hmm... hard question. You really need user metrics to answer it. Cost-wise, they could probably be reduced to a third or by half? But then add a modifier in the difficulty setting to the brothel upgrade costs, so that by Brothel King setting, it is back to where it is now?

One exception to that: the upgrade cost of the girl's rooms. That's one that I think is just too expensive, overall. Part of that is because you might go from 4 to 8 rooms before you upgrade them, which doubles the cost. Part of that is because you probably aren't making enough from whoring in chapter 2 to make the upgrade cost effective. I think this particular upgrade could benefit from a reduced cost compared to everything else, as well as having a "bulk purchase" discount... a cost of X + (num_rooms * Y) rather than straight up (num_rooms * Y).

But I think net income is probably a bigger factor. Even with reduced upgrade costs, if you are struggling to break even, for an extended period of time, then you can't afford stuff. And this ties into other things as well... no profits means you set security lower, so more events, which hurts your money. Go bankrupt, get bank loan, now you have to pay that back with interest.

And there, upkeep is probably the single biggest factor. Perhaps adjusting that a tad for rank 2 might be the best way to go about it. But that might not be necessary, because, by default, we pay too much as is. Automatic is a bit wasteful at the default level. Just some quick testing with how it currently works, for neutral mood mods (at least as shown in the UI):
1) New slave with 11 default cost. Can drop down to 7 while still keeping mood mod neutral.
2) I sold one of my best slaves in one of my games, bought her back...73 initial value, 64 is the bottom of white.
3) One of the other girls can go from 42 down to 25.
4) Looking at my wizzy game, which is further along, it is still a 15% savings when I drop the allowing from the base amount to the lowest amount that is still white.
Note that #2 and #3 are both maids with -15% upkeep reduction (trying a game with all girls as maids), while #2 has the Expensive trait.

Just tweaking automatic to default to the lowest amount for a given mood modifier would seem like something that would greatly help address the issue, especially as this cost gap seems to impact lower level girls more.

You could potentially overhaul this system a bit, to focus on mood modifier rather than gold cost. Have it show the mood modifier and gold cost. Lose the "A" as automatic won't matter anymore. Have - and + jump to the next tier of mood modifier, and you always pay the lowest cost that mood mod takes.

QuoteThis will be a NG+ option, but I think I like the balance I found with 500g at the beginning and don't want to break too many things

The starting gold is fine. I'm talking about how much gold the player has going into chapter 2. Like if completing chapter one required the player to stockpile a bit more gold, thereby giving them a bit more buffer in chapter 2. Alternately, the reimbursement rate could be cranked up for selling that first brothel.

That transition from chapter 1 to 2 is the main thing I'm focusing on, just because, in my experience, it is the hardest and most grindy time in the game by a considerable margin. Just strikes me as something that could be a major drop off point in player retention.

Quote from: Mudpony on Apr 23, 2024, 05:58 PMAnd there, upkeep is probably the single biggest factor. Perhaps adjusting that a tad for rank 2 might be the best way to go about it. But that might not be necessary, because, by default, we pay too much as is. Automatic is a bit wasteful at the default level. Just some quick testing with how it currently works, for neutral mood mods (at least as shown in the UI):
1) New slave with 11 default cost. Can drop down to 7 while still keeping mood mod neutral.
2) I sold one of my best slaves in one of my games, bought her back...73 initial value, 64 is the bottom of white.
3) One of the other girls can go from 42 down to 25.
4) Looking at my wizzy game, which is further along, it is still a 15% savings when I drop the allowing from the base amount to the lowest amount that is still white.
Note that #2 and #3 are both maids with -15% upkeep reduction (trying a game with all girls as maids), while #2 has the Expensive trait.

Hello,
Just to make sure, when you calibrate your girl's wages, do you look at the colour of the upkeep slider (red = underpaid, white = just fine, green = overpaid) or do you look at the direction of the mood-arrow next to the girl's name (arrow goes up = mood-increase at end of day ; arrow goes down = mood decrease at the end of day) ?

From my experience, it beacomes very fast rewarding to have some chats with the girls ("getting along with other girls" especially to encourage friendships) to bring up love and reduce distrust.
Just tripple-talk to the girl after the purchase, and you often can reduce the slider by a nice extra amount.
That works because both love and trust give modd bonuses that counteract mood-reductions from low upkeep. Also it feels like the moodreductions from low upkeep become weaker the more the girl loves/trusts you. And each dollar saved on allowance is a dollar more income the girl makes.
Of course keep an eye out for the masochist girls, their mood lessens when they trust you (but still increases with love)

@Goldo :
How hard is it to make the dirt from uproar-event dependent on the amount of bedrooms and/or working-rooms the hotel currently has ?
Instead of fire event = 40-60 dirt, it could be along the lines of (Number of Bedrooms * 2 + level of work-rooms * 5)
With maybe an upgrade "unflameable laundry" or "studry furniture" to make those costs go down.
After all, if the brothel is only 1 bedroom and a single bar, it would be far smaller to clean than a 4 bedroom brothel and all 4 workrooms installed.


Alternatively, the cost of outside cleaning (clean 100%/50%) could include the size of the brothel in addition to the district. Though I rather have dirt depending on the size, and not the cleaning cost.

Quote from: Alpha_and_omega on Apr 24, 2024, 12:19 PMJust to make sure, when you calibrate your girl's wages, do you look at the colour of the upkeep slider

Yeah, that's what that stuff you quoted is... where they start at by default (which is a white +0 mood modifier) to the lowest possible point that is still white. Even without any change to the girl, there's usually around a 15-20% gap there, and, well, girl #3 can have her allowance dropped by 40% and still be in the white. Basically, by default, even before you increase the love/trust, you can reduce the amount given.

And that said, when it comes to saving money on allowance, room upgrades also helps in that regard. Since, if you get +2 mood due to the quality of the girl's room, that means you can lower her allowance to a -2 mood modifier and it'll balance out.

But all that stuff is a bit more advanced play, something more for higher difficulties when income is reduced, girls are harder to raise, and so on.

QuoteAutomatic is a bit wasteful at the default level.
[...]
Just tweaking automatic to default to the lowest amount for a given mood modifier would seem like something that would greatly help address the issue, especially as this cost gap seems to impact lower level girls more.

Okay I think there's a misunderstanding regarding the upkeep UI I will need to clarify.

Automatic does not mean the slider will adjust to the most cost effective level. It just ensures that as your girl's upkeep needs grow, the slider keeps up with it to maintain the same mood modifier overall. If you push your upkeep to the max and keep upkeep automatic, it will always remain at max level, same goes for low upkeep levels.

In fact, there is no obvious 'most cost effective' level. With careful micro management or a fear-based build you can afford to keep upkeep modifiers slightly in the red, while sometimes you will want to be well in the green to compensate for some other mood penalty (such as having subpar rooms).

To improve the UI, I'm thinking of displaying the mood bonus next to the bar (and include a digit after the decimal point to avoid threshold effects), and removing the automatic option completely (in fact leaving it enabled by default at all times, because there is no real use case for disabling it I think).