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[Discussion] Chapter goals

Started by Goldo, Jul 25, 2022, 08:37 AM

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GoldoTopic starter

Hi, so I'm implementing a new feature for 0.3, which is a 'no story' mode that some people have been asking for. It would be unlocked after a first playthrough with the story on.

Given that this mode has no story, the only gatekeeping between chapters will be the chapter goals.

Now, I know that several people have mentioned that the mid-game goals are too easy to achieve. The aim, obviously, would be to pace the chapters properly (ideally, each chapter should be somewhat longer than the previous one).

So I would like to open a discussion: What would be good goals for each Chapter in a no-story game?  (they may or may not differ from story goals)

For the record, here are the current goals as extracted from BKsettings.rpy:
Spoiler
    ## CHAPTER GOALS

    # Goal types can be: 'gold', 'ranked' (reach rank X with Y girls), 'reputation', 'prestige'

    bro_cost = {1 : 0, 2 : 1000, 3: 5000, 4 : 7500, 5 : 15000, 6 : 25000, 7 : 100000}

    chapter_goals = {
                     1 : [Goal("gold", bro_cost[2])],
                     2 : [Goal("gold", bro_cost[3])],
                     3 : [Goal("ranked", 2, 6), Goal("gold", bro_cost[4])],
                     4 : [Goal("ranked", 3, 8), Goal("gold", bro_cost[5])],
                     5 : [Goal("ranked", 3, 10), Goal("gold", bro_cost[6])],
                     6 : [Goal("ranked", 4, 12), Goal("gold", bro_cost[7])],
                     7 : [Goal(None, channel="other")], # No goal for endless mode
                    }
[close]
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neronero

#1
What I don't like about the current goals is that they're all identical. Even if you tweak the numbers, everything is still completed on autopilot from beginning to end.

On the other hand, if you make the challenges too specific/unique then I think that goes against the spirit of a no-story mode. Eg: Why would the game demand that I have XX girls of rank X to reach endless mode? Maybe I want to create a challenge for myself by reaching it while having the least amount/lowest rank girls possible.

I think ideally the goals also give the player a small taste of new gameplay mechanics as they become available, without forcing them too far down a certain road.

1) Gather 1000 gold
2) Recruit 1 free girl + complete 2 classes + gather 5000 gold
3) Complete 4 quests + complete 1 contract + gather 7500 gold
4) Reach rank 3 with 8 girls + gather 15000 gold
5) Make XXXX* gold in a single night + gather 25000 gold
6) Serve XXX* Nobles + gather 100000 gold
7) -

*I haven't been playing enough of the lategame to put a number on this.
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neronero


Quote from: Jman9I think the best goals are already in the game: "X girls of rank Y". You can tweak these numbers if they seem too easy.

Other ideas: I once had both the "X girls of rank Y" goals and MC prestige goals. At least in early game, these were pretty substantial from player feedback. OTOH, the environment where they were more substantial was quite different, so not sure that'd transfer over.

Another idea would be to take inspiration from Papa Freak: have at least one girl satisfy some quite strenuous stat/job requirements.

Or a similar take: have at least one (or ten, or ten thousand) customer(s) get a 'perfect' score from entertainment+whoring. And not just any old customer, but one from the highest tier available in that chapter. So no cheating via beggars, and you also need to unlock and invite those customers.

Possibly also a requirement for brothel fame and/or some number of successfully completed contracts. Or even taxes paid. :devilish:

One could also look to achievements for more inspiration.
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Calob

Given that a 'no story' mode would focus even more on the 'make the numbers go up' game, cash + girls + girl rank is a perfectly adequate way of gating progress, since those are the numbers you want to make go up, and the ones the player has the most control over.

There are ways of masking the cash requirement and making it less about just building a big war chest when you want to move on to the next chapter: Cash spent on brothel upgrades, taxes, or perhaps some kind of 'total net worth' that adds up cash + brothel value + slave value + item value.

'Number of customers served' or anything similar is functionally a time requirement. Given that furniture is already a big time gate to making numbers go up, I'm inclined to think it's not really needed.

neronero

#4
Quote from: Calob on Jul 25, 2022, 01:02 PMGiven that a 'no story' mode would focus even more on the 'make the numbers go up' game, cash + girls + girl rank is a perfectly adequate way of gating progress, since those are the numbers you want to make go up, and the ones the player has the most control over.
This really depends on your playstyle. The game becomes boring to me once you're required to manage more and more girls. You forget their names and personalities and they just become numbers on a spreadsheet.

Once I reach the storyless later chapters, I tend to get bored and restart. That's why (paradoxically) I'm especially interested in a no-story mode, primarily for the early game.

So if the game/goals would allow me to somehow reach the late-game with 8 girls, I would vastly prefer playing that way. (If not, no harm done - since a no-story mode will make restarting easier than ever)
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GoldoTopic starter

Thank you for the great insight. One thing I'd like to make clear: for me, Goals should not corner a player into a specific playstyle. Meaning goals that require maxing out girls in the brothel, or having girls with specific jobs, skills and so on are probably off the table.

On the other hand, I like the idea of variety in goals, so not gating everything with total gold is appealing. Some of the alternatives you suggested such as gold spent on upgrades, or gold made in a single night look very interesting, even if they amount to the same thing they offer some variation for players.
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neronero

#6
Quote from: neronero
Quote from: Jman9, post: 8619909, member: 1528105[USER=3301737]__neronero[/USER]'s numbers seem way too low for me, but I am admittedly not a vanilla player.
You're probably right, I'm overcompensating a bit too much because I'm looking forward to this no-story mode for my casual runs, not for the "new game +" challenge that some might want from this.

In my eyes the no-story mode shouldn't be converting the skipped story-time into more grinding-time by changing the chapter goals significantly. Bigger challenges should be accessed through the difficulty options instead.

Quote from: Jman
Quote from: neroneroI believe chapter goals that are too specific should really be achievements instead.
The trouble with that is that achievements are optional. But I imagine this is not really a discussion of these goals Goldo wants to have, but rather a proper new game+/challenge run mode. Which would be a separate and different thing altogether.
^A simple implementation of "Challenge runs" could be converting these chapter goals into some very specific challenges (activated by checking a box in the difficulty screen)

Quote from: Jman9, post: 8619909, member: 1528105Well, in that case alternative ways of expressing 'gold made' would seem best, since that's fully within player control and tends to reflect most other not-too-specific goals. Gold total, highest gold per night, highest gold per customer, taxes paid, quest/contract income earned, perhaps even highest price you sold a girl for?
^I especially like taxes paid and quest/contract income earned
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GoldoTopic starter

Are you and Jman the same person? Is this all happening in your head?  ;D
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neronero

:o Now that you mention it, I don't think I've ever been in the same room as Jman!
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DougTheC

Quote from: neronero on Jul 26, 2022, 05:07 AM:o Now that you mention it, I don't think I've ever been in the same room as Jman!

At least you didn't say, "I don't think I've ever been in the same room as me!"
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Rewsrer

If you play on bk difficulty, girls will always have maximum stats (if you want income). That is, the requirement for rank is nonsense. The girls immediately raise him worth going to a new brothel(Most tedious to raise the price of raising the rank). With the current requirement to move into a new brothel, it takes many times more money to develop a new brothel than just the requirement to move. Not developed brothel = risk of bankruptcy, few customers with small amounts in their pockets will not even pay for the maintenance.

I recently played on bk difficulty and my transition for chapters 5 and 6 was immediately available as I moved to a new brothel (in 6 after raising the rank of girls). If you make prestige a requirement, you need to keep a bunch of whores pumping their relationship to sex acts on the farm all the time.

In general, any requirement will require the player to play in a certain way ;D  ;)

Netscape1964

honestly, i never used the farm. for me it could not be there it would be the same

cosmonight19

"have X Gold" or "have X number of girls at Y rank" are definitely way too easy, and i definitely find it a bit annoying immediately after finishing one chapter the button to advance to the next one is just there when you want some time to get ready for the next chapter and build up some extra funds before moving.

i like the "earn x gold in a single night" and "complete X contracts" ones, and i think giving people options for more specific/difficult chapter progression goals could be interesting, like having a basic general set of goals then a challenge mode that asks you to do the harder or more specific things "get x girl(s) to make y amount in z job" or "sell a girl for a profit of x", that kind of thing. 

Netscape1964

Quote from: cosmonight19 on Jul 28, 2022, 04:14 AM"have X Gold" or "have X number of girls at Y rank" are definitely way too easy, and i definitely find it a bit annoying immediately after finishing one chapter the button to advance to the next one is just there when you want some time to get ready for the next chapter and build up some extra funds before moving.

i like the "earn x gold in a single night" and "complete X contracts" ones, and i think giving people options for more specific/difficult chapter progression goals could be interesting, like having a basic general set of goals then a challenge mode that asks you to do the harder or more specific things "get x girl(s) to make y amount in z job" or "sell a girl for a profit of x", that kind of thing. 

i don't know how easy it would  be but having 2 sets of actually goals could give a little extra bonus if you do it could be nice.

GoldoTopic starter

That would be... extremely easy to do to be honest. I only need help calibrating the goals with actual player feedback, because I literally never have time to play past the first 2 chapters.
Maker of BK. Looking for the latest patch for BK 0.2? It's right here. The link doesn't change, so bookmark it!